Building a new rig...opinions?

[Shark]

I've got about 1300 or so to work with and am building a new rig for PS...thought I might ask for opinions here. AMD or Intel?? GeForce 4 Ti or ATI 9700 Pro. I'm all set on the other components, but would be happy to here what YOU think are the pro's and con's of AMD/Intel and NVidia/ATI (and I already know the ATI's don't play nice with T2). Lemme here from ya!!

-shark

[Spinning Hat]

I'd go with the Nvidia Ti4600 or 4800. The gain you get over the Radeon 9700 with the GeFoceFX isn't worth the cash, unless you NEED to have the biggest badest Vid Card out there. And the Athlon 2600-2800+ are really nice too, they actually perform better than the 3000+.

My $.02

[Shark]

Thanks Spinning...do you know anything about the overclockability of those AMD chips?

[Spinning Hat]

I've been told by a couple that with the right Mainboard and RAM, it's nice. SouP Sidewinder has a 2600 and he's got his OC'ed up the wazoo.

[Shark]

Hmmm...have a guy in KY who says the same thing...but the trick is getting the right mobo. Was thinking 2700+ or 2800+...guess it's off to the hardware sites for me :)

-shark

[SirDiesalot]

Sidewinder does have a water cooling case though so... that kinda facilitates OCing a little more ;)

[Spinning Hat]

Not really, with the right fans LSD. With a good mainboard, good fans, and the right airflow in a case, you can OC with the best of them.

[Splidz]

I'd say go with an ATI card. The 9500 Pro is the best deal on the block as far as I'm concerned. I like AMD best too, I have a 1900+ that I got a year ago and it still does me fine.

Regarding overclocking, if you're not a techie kind of guy, I wouldn't do it. I know a lot about computers but I never bother. I can see the kind of overclocking you do by flashing your BIOS or just changing a CMOS setting, but the stuff where you're installing fancy cooling systems and rewiring circuits is just not worth losing your warranty for, IMO. Every new rig I've ever built was plenty fast without it.

[Dinkus McGee]

actually, the gf4ti is seriously outdated these days.
the 9700pro IS worth the money, hands down. And if its a little pricey, the 9500 PRO (NOT the non pro version) wipes the floor with any nvidia card, and costs less, too.

hell, you could put an athlon 2200 on an Nforce 2 board for under 200 bucks.

[JC]

I just got a 2100+ Thuroughbred B Core from newegg. Supposedly these are great overclockers; will let you know.

I use a Radeon 9500pro, I like it a bunch but sux for T2 b/c T2 is a shitily coded game :rolleyes:

With $1300 here is what I'd prob do, but this is just me. Don't forget I am compleatly bias to AMD and ATI :rolleyes:


AMD Setup:

Motherboard:

Asus A7N8X Deluxe (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=13-131-436&DEPA=1) - $149

Processors:

If you would like the ability to Overclock in the future but want something that will last longer without having to bother with OCing, go with the Athlon XP 2600+ Thoroughbred. $241 Retail.

RAM

The Asus Board supports Dual Channel DDR, so do it :p

Corsair Memory XMS (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?DEPA=1&submit=manufactory&catalog=147&manufactory=1666&description=&page=2) Extreme Memory Speed Series, Low Latency (Twin Pack) 1GB CAS Latency 2-2-2-6-T1 DDR 400mhz

Yes this is $340 worth of Ram, but it seriously kicks ass :)


If you think it is absolutly absurd to spend that much then you can pick your own ram, I just don't buy cheap ram ever. :o

Video Card

Best Buy: Radeon 9500pro (Saves you some cash and can perform at Ti4600 speeds for less $$) $205

However you could find the 9700pro's pretty cheap now. heard it was $300 in some places and it may be worth the extra money for just that much more power.



2nd Best Buy: Geforce 4Ti 4200, good deal for how inexpensive it is. Obviously wont last you much more then a year from now though. Allthough you can get some of the very overclockable ones but then you are talking about spending more and therfore not making it such a good deal ;) $150


Sound Card

That Asus Motherboard from what I understand has a great intergraded sound system. However if you are wanting more a lot of people suggest:

M-Audio Revolution (http://m-audio.com/products/consumer/revolution_page1.php)

You can get it at newegg for another $100 but if it where me I'd just use the intergraded sound. From what I understand intergraded components preform a lot faster then the PCI slotted ones and take up less resorces anyhow.

Hard Drive

However much you need. I'd say for a gaming machine 80GB of space would suffice and for only $100 the Western Digital 800JB (8MB Cache) is a pretty nice drive.

However if you want to try out something new like "Serial ATA" it will cost you about $180 for a 120GB Segate Drive at www.googlegear.com .

Other Then that I'm not sure what else you'd want.


Those are just my suggestions of various components in a computer that you "may" like to have but like you said you only needed a few. If you really are set all all your other components I'd go with:


Asus Board
2600+ w/ a good cooling fan
1GB (Twin)Ram
Radeon 9700pro
Use onboard Sound
Segate V Serial ATA 120GB

Total Price would be < $1,300

If you want a lower price:

You can get the Western Digital Drive that would lower the price by $80; that $80 may be worth it @ 150mb/s.

Another way to lower the price more; you can get the Radeon 9500Pro and that will save you about $100-$150 depending on where you get the 9700pro.

**Edit: I was looking at newegg and I saw the XP 2500+ Barton Core for $178. That looks like a pretty darn good deal not to mention its wooping 640KB of Cache. Good God Man it's a Xeon!

That right there will probably easily preform as well as that 2600+ TB I was talking about for ~ $60 less and it may have room for even better expandability then the 2600+. Then again the clock speed is a lot lowered.

[Malthus]

Just some quick additions to the excellent advice so far.

Keep in mind that ATI is also releasing their next line of cards at the end of the month. This is gonna effect pricing for all their cards, so you might want to wait and read some reviews of the new ones vs the old ones and decide from there.

Also, the Revolution. I have a friend who bought one as soon as it came out, hoping that a new sound card would be better then the majority that are out there and are a couple of years old at this point. His opinion, if you listen to MP3's on your pc it is hands down the best for the money. For games it's about on par with everything else out there. Just some real user comments for ya. :)

Pretty much everything JC reccomended is what I'd do if I had that much to spend. 1300 is a pretty good amount of change, I usually do my upgrades in like $300 peices :)

[Shark]

WOW! Great advice all. I have been pricing system parts at pricewatch and of course following the news on the latest video cards. I will probably go AMD and A7N8X. Not sure what the CPU speed will be or which core...that new Barton 2500+ sounds interesting...wonder if they'll release a higher speed on it.

I'm not much for uber cooling systems and over clocking. I'm a software guy, not hardware. But I know enough to have built my last 5 systems and I always feel better when I do it myself.

On the video card, I think it'll be the 9700 pro, or possibly the all in wonder 9700 pro. Just not sure I need all the features on the all in wonder. I've heard the horror stories about ATI's and T2, but I expect to transition to PS only when it releases.

I was planning to keep my sb live value and just reuse it, but if the integrated sound on the mobo is good, i might go with that...will save me transfering the card from the old box.

As for the HD, I'm thinking of going scsi this time. I've never had one, but I thought it might be helpful for those dynamically loaded textures and such in PS. Any thoughts on that?

Again, thanks for all the advice; it'll be a great help.

-shark

[Dinkus McGee]

if you get the Nforce board with the Nvidia soundstorm sound, its EXCELLENT.
if you get one with an AC/97 codec, use your soundblaster.

[Spinning Hat]

I'd wait for Serial ATA before I did anything really big right now, and I definitely wouldn't go SCSI. The Nforce 2 boards have serial ata connectors on them, I think, and it'd be just a metter of time before the Drives were available.

[Shark]

Will do...given that the release date on PS has slipped, I'll prolly wait one more month...in that time, prices should come down just a little further. Thanks again all for the advice.

[JC]

Originally posted by JC[TKB]
I just got a 2100+ Thuroughbred B Core from newegg. Supposedly these are great overclockers; will let you know.


2.3ghz w/o breaking a sweat. If I play with it some more I could probably get 2.4-2.5 but hey a 2100+ @ ~ 2700-2800+ Speeds is good enough for the time being.


Originally posted by Spinning Hat
I'd wait for Serial ATA before I did anything really big right now, and I definitely wouldn't go SCSI. The Nforce 2 boards have serial ata connectors on them, I think, and it'd be just a metter of time before the Drives were available.


Originally posted by JC[TKB]
However if you want to try out something new like "Serial ATA" it will cost you about $180 for a 120GB Segate Drive at www.googlegear.com .

As for SCSI, they do serioisly kick ass if you can afford them. They are way to pricey for me though. I'm running 2x 73GB SCSI Drives on my server; they are capable of reaching speeds of 350mb/s more then double that of Serial ATA. You just have to make sure that you have a good SCSI Card, also the connection cables are diferent and you need to worry about terminating the cables. I tell you what though, running two of them w/ RAID 0 for a gamming machine would be godlike. Also about $600 for just two harddrives let alone $100 for a good SCSI card, and the amount of time it takes to set everything up. As apposed to having a EIDE hdd you would have a lot more trouble setting up your bootdrive b/c SCSI isn't "Bootable" in most BIOSes.

Serial ATA is defintly the way to go time/$ wise. However the 150mb/s transferrates are only "burst" speeds. Kinda like saying the SCSIs can get 350mb/s, it can only do it in a short burst most of the time. I still prefer the WD JB series w/ 8MB Cache. They are still defintly the best bang for your buck and probably will be for a while. You could probably buy 2 80GB JB's for the price of one SATA HDD the same size.

[Shark]

Yup...I'm gonna stick with the SATA...can get a Seagate 80GB for around 135...that's enough for me. And thanks for putting in all that time on that great write up JC ;)

[JC]

Anytime dude, all I do in my spare time is browse hardware forums anyhow :p

[ICE9]

Don't waste your money on the 9700 pro though. You can get a 9500 and unlock the extra pipes with software, then it actually runs faster than a 9700.

Don't skimp on the ram either. The ram sugested by JC is excellent. Most people buy bargain ram thinking size/cost matters more than quality, but the quality is EXTREMELY important. Do not just buy the cheapest ram on pricewatch.

\/edit\/

Almost forgot. I would choose Maxtor over Western Digital. Untill this month I also was a WD fan. This month I had both a WD and a Maxtor drive start whining VERY loud. I RMA'd both drives.

Maxtor sent me a brand new 160GB to replace my 120GB :D

While WD sent me a refurbished drive of the same model which is "unfathomably" even LOUDER than the drive I RMA'd :confused:

[Ashaman]

If I were you, I'd buy the system in a few more months. Serial ATA will take over the current IDE scheme. And there is only ONE Serial ATA controller that has a true Serial ATA chip. I forgot exactly which one, but the info is on Tom's Hardware Guide (www.tomshardware.com). Wait a few months, and what you will find in the stores are boards that truly have a serial ATA controller; not just a good old IDE controller with a few pins soldered to make it serial.

;)


Although, the A7N8X Deluxe is a VERY nice board. Probably the best AMD board out there right now.

*EDIT: %$# IT ALL TO HELL! Fixed URL*

[Ashaman]

Ahh... here it is:

Use MB with the Silicon Image, Sil3112 serial ATA controller chip.

;)

[JC]

Originally posted by ICE9 [TKB]
Don't waste your money on the 9700 pro though. You can get a 9500 and unlock the extra pipes with software, then it actually runs faster than a 9700.

That is only very specific models of the 9500 (Non Pro) and it isn't a software mod. It is an actual soldering mod and it only works about 70% of the time from what I understand. If you think I can OC my 9500Pro to a 9700pro with a software-mod tell me where :D


BTW a new board from MSI Just Came out and it has had some promising user reviews. I've always been a big MSI fan because IMO their stability is unmatched.

[FaLLGuY]

I get my 9700 Pro in a couple days.:D I can't wait!:bounce:

[Ambush_Bug]

Random bits to throw in:

SCSI: I gotta work with this, in various flavors, damn near every day of the week. The short version is this--if you've got a single-drive system, skip SCSI and go with some flavor of IDE. SCSI doesn't start to seriously rip things up until you get multiple drives on the chain, and that's when it takes multiple-drive IDE systems and slams them through the floor. SCSI RAID is even better, though there are some serious risks to your data depending on how you've got the RAID array set up.

Plus, the equipment is more expensive (ie: you have to buy the controller card, cabling, and terminators, and quality ones will cost you. Skimping on quality with SCSI isn't a good idea either--you spent all that money, why not go whole hog?), and the high-performance SCSI drives will devlop thermal problems if you don't plan your case and cooling accordingly. Of course, 7200+RPM IDE drives will also develop thermal problems if you don't take care, but SCSI drives, in my experience, generate more heat.

Watercooling: I'm a big fan of watercooled systems, but not because I overclock my processor. Nope, I like 'em 'cause they're much quieter in general than air-cooling. Prime example: my gaming machine. Five 80MM Sunon fans and it almost requires headphones for me to do any serious gaming or work on it. Asha's got a Koolance machine, and I recall him saying it's almost impossible to hear.

I've got plans in the works for a 'hassock' machine--a big wood cube with watercooling for just about everything. Gonna take me some time to get it built, but when it's done, I hope to end up with something that's dead quiet that I can roll under my desk and forget about until it's time to flush the coolant.

Mind you, you can make very, very quiet air-cooled machines, but it requires that you use larger fans, install ductwork, undervolt your fans, isolate your drives from the chassis, or any and all of the above. Lots of research, and you still have the dust problem.

[Shark]

Thanks again all for all of the tips. Ambush...I'm not going SCSI and while watercooling sounds cool, it sounds like way more than I want to get into. Ashaman, I'm sure you're right about the whole Serial ATA thing. But that's not gonna stop me...I got this money burning a hole in my pocket.

Also, I've been considering going with a P4 lately (3.06). I know the HT is not going to be all that useful right away, for gaming at least, but in the future, I expect it to. Also, they run a lot cooler than Athlons, and my office is always hot in the summer, so that might be a plus (more for the rig than for me). Here's what I have lined up for that layout:

CPU Intel 3.06 P4 $500
Mobo ASUS P4G8X Deluxe $220
Memory corsair 1GB twin pack $310
VCard 9700 pro $270
HD Seagate Serial ATA 80GB $138
Case/PS $100

I only have 100 budgeted for the case AND ps...if any of you have some tips on those I'd be glad to hear em. My budget has gone up as you might have guessed, by around 200-300 bucks, so I know I might also consider a Barton core system (2800) too. I don't plan on building another system anytime soon - I will probably have this one for a good 2 years, with a video card upgrade after about 1-1.5 years. What do ya think?

[PsychomanX]

Or you could be L33T like me.. Get the globalwin CAK46 (I think that is right) fan Its a really loud mofo but it is the best air cooler on the market right now. Its all copper with allot of thin fins and a funnel to adapt the 80mm high speed fan to fit on the heatsink.. Its a motha..

As for video card I got a sapphire radeon 9500 nonpro.. But with a little help from riva tuner and rage 3d its got the other 4 of 8 pipelines unlocked and its overclocked past performance of radeon 9700 pro.. WOOT I also put a bigger radeon cooler on it with artic silver 3 on all heatsinks and coolers. Unfortunately the XP1900 I have will not sucsessfully unlock even though Pchicks XP1800 did unlock.

[ICE9]

Ah, Pman made my point already, but it's an important correction. JC, when you first posted the 9500 hack, it did require soldering, but now it can simply be turned on with Riva Tuner which effectively gives it 25% more speed at a cost savings of > $100

[Ambush_Bug]

Case and power supply: DO NOT SKIMP ON THESE. Especially the power supply! Sparkle and Enlight are good names with most of the self-build community as far as power supplies go. They'll cost you, but it's worth protecting your investment. If you get a cheap PS (name brand of 'Deer' is to be avoided at all costs), you will pay for it later.

As far as the case goes, you have more options and price ranges, but you want to avoid the really cheap cases so that you don't have to worry about slicing off body parts when you reach inside them. Cheap cases stamp their parts and don't roll//file the edges, so you end up with these deceptively sharp edges all over the inside of the case. Antec is a good brand to start with. Definitely shop around for your case. I speak as a guy who spent several summers building computers for a local shop part-time, and cheap cases just SUCK. I still have some scars on my fingers, too.

[Ashaman]

:lol: You can always send some of that money my way if it's burning a hole. ;)


As for my system's noise... it's not much. Even on the 'high' setting, I have more noise outside my apartment than inside. I usually keep the window open in the room where my computer is though... helps to keep it cool with new cool air coming in. I've had my temps stay consistently at 6 C (average winter night around here), and peak at 37 C (on a VERY hot summer day).

I'll admit that if you accidentally crack your water reservior, that it's a pain. You got this small leak and you don't know where the water is coming from until you rip it apart. The GREAT thing about Koolance cases is their RMA policy; I got a replacement case for free when I told them what happened. Even though it was my fault for setting it down too hard on a hardwood floor!

[PsychomanX]

I have a enermax case and I love it.

Here is a pic of my case.

http://www.geocities.com/livesforlife/my_tower.jpg

[Splidz]

hey psycho...i just bought a radeon 9500 pro, an original ATI. what would you recommend to do to overclock it? where should i go for the info, etc.?

[JC]

www.rage3d.com